tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1089082204850170942.post7480754498847941443..comments2024-03-21T12:52:08.166+11:00Comments on Freedom and Flourishing: Is a desire for enlightenment (in the Eastern sense) consistent with Enlightenment humanism?Winton Bateshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07383561940886657594noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1089082204850170942.post-54916925363100731022012-05-09T08:34:14.837+10:002012-05-09T08:34:14.837+10:00I don't accept that all religions are equal. F...I don't accept that all religions are equal. For example, in my view religions that require their followers to engage in human sacrifice are inferior. Religions that favour suppression of other religions are inferior. Religions that do not recognize equal rights of women are inferior.<br /><br />I would argue that when there is a conflict between respect for the rights of individuals and respect for religious beliefs then individual rights should prevail. <br /><br />That said, respect for the rights of other people provides a basis for progression to understanding of the importance to them of their religious beliefs and possibly respect for those beliefs.Winton Bateshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07383561940886657594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1089082204850170942.post-27837139095583531912012-05-09T01:49:29.086+10:002012-05-09T01:49:29.086+10:00Greek thought resonated with Indians for the simpl...Greek thought resonated with Indians for the simple reason that it was based on spiritualism rather than organised religion. Exchange and interchange of ideas would have certainly flourished during the flowering of Buddhism in India which was when Vedic religious ritualism was overthrown by Buddhist emphasis on individual seeking. It was later that Adi Shankara retrieved Vedic and Vedantic influence.<br /><br />Such polemic still begs the question of enlightenment meaning, bringing light to the age of darkness rather than the Eastern idea of individual lightening/shedding of the burden of conditioned existence.<br /><br />My and many of my contemporaries here in India question the idea that bringing enlightenment in the former sense is the Western/Christian prerogative. This implies of course that the East is still in the dark ages!<br /><br />I am aware that the word Christian can raise shackles, but use I must as the influence of Christianity, even in this day of secularism/atheism in the West, is overwhelming. For instance, let us take the use of the word "tolerance" in dealing with other religions and cultures so often<br />bandied about. Should this word not be replaced with "Respect"? I have tried that argument with secularists and atheists who bristle at the very thought, because, respect would imply conceding at least equality if not superiority to "other" religions.Rummuserhttp://www.rummuser.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1089082204850170942.post-39249044979117148562012-05-08T07:20:22.045+10:002012-05-08T07:20:22.045+10:00That is interesting, Jim. I had thought the flow o...That is interesting, Jim. I had thought the flow of ideas would have been in the other direction. <br />However, it is likely that there was an interchange of ideas, with trade links as well as the invasion by Alexander.Winton Bateshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07383561940886657594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1089082204850170942.post-27471920879675562472012-05-07T21:30:06.869+10:002012-05-07T21:30:06.869+10:00One interesting point that Toynbee makes, Winton, ...One interesting point that Toynbee makes, Winton, is on the Greek influence in India including aspects of Buddhism.Jim Belshawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10075614280789984767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1089082204850170942.post-75500387196540374802012-05-06T11:58:20.431+10:002012-05-06T11:58:20.431+10:00Rummuser:
Our views don't seem to be too far a...Rummuser:<br />Our views don't seem to be too far apart, Ramana.<br /><br />Regarding interest groups manipulating the system, I would argue that representative government is a big advance on the systems it replaced because it enables tyrants who enrich themselves at the expense of the public, or grossly favour particular interest groups, to be kicked out of government in a non-violent manner. (Hmmm, I am still using the language of violence to describe non-violent action!)<br /> <br />At the same time, representative government still suffers from interest group politics. In most democracies it seems to me that a few interest groups tend to wield disproportionate power. One mechanism to deal with this, which has had modest success in Australia, is to ensure that the arguments for government intervention are subject to systematic public scrutiny. (We have a Productivity Commission that tries to perform that role.)Winton Bateshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07383561940886657594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1089082204850170942.post-87339470563335191072012-05-06T11:29:49.085+10:002012-05-06T11:29:49.085+10:00Hi Legal Eagle
Thanks for visiting. I am planning ...Hi Legal Eagle<br />Thanks for visiting. I am planning to return the visit when I finish reading 'The Better Angels ...' to see whether I agree with the comments you made on that book a few weeks ago.<br /><br />I agree with all your comments above. Nevertheless a strong case can be made that the Dalai Lama has been a force for modernization in Tibet. In terms of his writings he is very much in the Enlightenment humanism camp and seems to have a fascination for science. A cynic might say that it is in his interests to present such an image to win support in the West, but his actions seem to be consistent with his writings. For example, I seem to remember reading somewhere that he has now relinquished a political leadership role among the exiles.Winton Bateshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07383561940886657594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1089082204850170942.post-964705457693792092012-05-06T11:24:41.304+10:002012-05-06T11:24:41.304+10:00I practice Vipassana. I am of the firm conviction ...I practice Vipassana. I am of the firm conviction that all the "paths" lead to the same end, and finding MA and Goenka similar is not surprising,<br /><br />Ethics, based on one simple motto, not to do anything to anybody/thing that I would not like done to me, is universal and as long as this is the bedrock on which behaviour is built, I have no quarrel with it.<br /><br />Ethics based on any other value, say like manipulating a system to benefit particular interest group/s would certainly fall out of the field of ethics, but that seems acceptable in various contexts from the age of enlightenment. That behaviour, over a period of time has become accepted as justifiable and that is what troubles me.Rummuserhttp://www.rummuser.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1089082204850170942.post-879917367825388852012-05-06T11:08:06.810+10:002012-05-06T11:08:06.810+10:00Evan,
Sorry, I meant to agree with your second po...Evan, <br />Sorry, I meant to agree with your second point. What we refer to as the Enlightenment was certainly about science and reason, and questioning of traditions. However, in the case of the Scottish Enlightenment there was a great deal more understanding of the value of evolved institutions than in Europe.<br /><br />I don't think the revolution in thinking that accompanied the Enlightenment should be seen as a peculiarly western phenomenon. It started in Europe but has now spread over most of the world. <br /><br />You may well be right about there being less sense of the prophetic in eastern traditions, but it is obviously difficult to generalize. I would not have thought that it would be true of Islam.Winton Bateshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07383561940886657594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1089082204850170942.post-51179135696943831822012-05-06T10:49:19.958+10:002012-05-06T10:49:19.958+10:00Evan
While it is true that people in the West tend...Evan<br />While it is true that people in the West tend to be more individualistic, I am not sure that this difference stems from religion. I wrote something about this <a href="http://wintonbates.blogspot.com.au/2010/03/is-buddhism-opposed-to-individualism.html" rel="nofollow">here</a> ,with particular reference to Buddhism.Winton Bateshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07383561940886657594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1089082204850170942.post-13687166963114675292012-05-06T10:28:09.558+10:002012-05-06T10:28:09.558+10:00Heh, I was just reading Marcus Aurelius and thinki...Heh, I was just reading Marcus Aurelius and thinking that he sounded awfully Buddhist. I've never thought the East and the West are as far apart as they think they are. Of course, I think the pre-Christian Romans and the Japanese have a good deal in common too (imperial culture, worship of numen/kami, ancestor worship, big on filial piety, highly syncretic etc)<br /><br />The problem with enlightenment humanists holding up Tibet as an exemplar is not that there are indolent monks exploiting the workers (as you note, there are always individuals of a given faith whose conduct is against all that the faith should stand for). It is the fact that previously, before the Chinese took over, Tibet was a theocracy (and thus its political organisation was highly inconsistent with enlightenment values which see the separation of religion and state as important). My understanding, for example, is that there was a highly stratified legal system whereby a peasant would be subject to the death penalty for a certain action, but a lama would be subject to a small fine for the same crime.<br /><br />Naturally enough this is one of the things the Chinese used as an excuse for taking over Tibet ("we're saving the peasants"). I should make it clear that I don't think in any sense that the Chinese were justified in doing what they did (and are doing) to Tibet, and I think the notion of "saving the peasants" was an excuse for colonial expansion. All I'm saying is that it's complicated, and I understand where Kasper's call of caution is coming from.<br /><br />Buddhism doesn't necessarily imply theocracy in any case, so Buddhism is not incompatible with Western humanism; but Buddhist theocracy is.<br /><br />[Whoops, I accidentally posted as my husband's alter ego - that's what the deleted comment is about]Legal Eaglehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01096038577529334966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1089082204850170942.post-31192105414882303902012-05-06T10:26:27.228+10:002012-05-06T10:26:27.228+10:00This comment has been removed by the author.Count Skogghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13224322266770065319noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1089082204850170942.post-36240189209075427422012-05-06T09:41:59.168+10:002012-05-06T09:41:59.168+10:00I do think a good deal of the ethics of the East a...I do think a good deal of the ethics of the East and West are compatible. <br /><br />The big conflict I think is the sense of self. I don't think only vipassna gives a sense of transience. And I don't necessarily the transient need be devalued (as most of Buddhism does - permanence being linked to realness and validity).<br /><br />For the western enlightenment there was much about human assertion against tradition and institutions (especially religious ones). This is much less the case in eastern enlightenment traditions. There is much less sense of the prophetic in the eastern traditions - they tend to accept existing social practices. In this sense they are more individualistic than the 'individualist' west.Evanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13355215688351759230noreply@blogger.com